British MEP Nirj Deva tells DW the success of the possible Trump-Kim meeting would depend on Washington's preparation for talks. Deva has been engaged in high-level talks with North Korean officials on behalf of the EU.
Image: picture-alliance/dpa/AP/Ahn Young-Joon
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A European Parliament delegation revealed on March 14 that it had been conducting secret talks with North Korean officials over the last three years in order to convince Pyongyang to end its controversial nuclear program.
The parliament's delegation was led by British Member of European Parliament (MEP) Nirj Deva, who has met with senior North Korean officials 14 times and plans to hold another meeting in Brussels in the near future.
After taking a non-compromising posture last year, US President Donald Trump said earlier this month he would be willing to meet North Korean leader Kim Jong Un in person to resolve the crisis on the Korean Peninsula.
In an exclusive interview with DW, British MEP Nirj Deva says that the success of the Trump-Kim talks would depend on the preparation of the American leader's negotiating team.
DW: When exactly did the secret talks between the EU and North Korea take place? Was there any specific reason to initiate the dialogue?
Nirj Deva: It started about three years ago, when I became chairman of the European Parliament committee dealing with the Korean Peninsula. A requirement of the parliament statutory structure is that I and other committee delegates must treat both North and South Korea equally.
We have held 14 meetings with senior North Korean officials over the past three years; sometimes very long meetings. We discussed a whole range of issues.
British MEP, Nirj DevaImage: Privat
Did you talk to the same officials every time or did the participants vary?
There were different people from the regime — from the ambassadorial level to a ministerial director level.
What were the main topics of discussion?
First and foremost, we talked about their nuclear and missile programs. We were very clear from the outset that these programs are an existential issue for the Korean regime, because Pyongyang asked the North Korean people to make tremendous sacrifices to make the missile and nuclear development possible.
Successive North Korean regimes have pinned their hopes and their identity on North Korea becoming a nuclear power and therefore being treated like an equal [by the international community]. That's why whenever we asked them to discuss denuclearization as a precondition to talks, they said they could not do that. So we recognized that if we were going to have talks, we must sit down [with the North Koreans] like the West did during the Cold War.
During the Cold War, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and Helmut Kohl sat down with Mikhail Gorbachev without preconditions. And they ended the Cold War. The Berlin Wall collapsed, Germany was reunified and the Soviet empire came to an end. All this happened because the world leaders at the time decided to engage in a dialogue without preconditions.
North Korea's Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump to meet
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But the North Koreans see their nuclear program as non-negotiable.
They have never said it is non-negotiable. What they have said is that they don't want it as the first condition for talks. It should be the end of a process, not the beginning of a process. But the problem is that the EU and the US say they will not sit down for talks unless North Korea gets rid of their nuclear weapons. So it was a standoff, as it is now.
Whenever I press the denuclearization point, North Korean officials remind me of what happened to Muammar Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein. They ask: "Do you think if Gaddafi had nuclear weapons, he would have met the same fate?"
How much progress have you made so far with the North Koreans?
It is very difficult to measure progress, but I can say that we have built confidence. Confidence building is actually recognizing one another's red lines. If you don't acknowledge the red lines and go into talks, the talks can fail. And what happens if the talks fail? War. And that is a dangerous thing.
In 2017, the rhetoric between US President Trump and North Korean leader Kim became very aggressive. What effect did this war of words have on your talks with North Korea?
I think the war of words between Washington and Pyongyang made our talks more meaningful, because we were basically the only people the North Koreans were talking to. We made it clear to them that we were not talking on behalf of the US. Also, we were not talking on behalf of any state, as we were negotiating with them as a European Parliament's delegation.
North Korea: Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un's nuclear saga
North Korea's "rocket man" and America's "dotard" first threatened to fire nuclear weapons at each other. Then they wanted to talk peace, before Trump canceled. DW charts the major events in the Trump-Kim saga.
Image: picture-alliance/AP Photo/Ahn Young-joon
January 2, 2017: Missile test imminent
North Korean leader Kim Jong Un said in his New Year’s address that his country was in the "final stages" of launching an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). US President-elect Donald Trump, whose inauguration was set for January 20, said on Twitter: "North Korea just stated that it is in the final stages of developing a nuclear weapon capable of reaching parts of the US. It won't happen!"
Image: Getty Images/AFP/KNCA
July 4, 2017: North Korea's 'gift packages'
North Korea tested its first ICBM — the Hwasong-14 — on US Independence Day. Kim reportedly told his scientists that "the US would be displeased" by the launch. This, he said, was because "it was given a 'package of gifts' ... on its 'Independence Day.'" Trump wrote on Twitter in response: "North Korea has just launched another missile. Does this guy have anything better to do with his life?"
Image: Reuters/KCNA
July 28, 2017: US mainland threatened
Pyongyang tested its second Hwasong-14 weeks later. Experts estimated the new rocket could reach the US mainland. Trump lashed out at North Korean ally China, writing in a Tweet: "I am very disappointed in China. Our foolish past leaders have allowed them to make hundreds of billions of dollars a year in trade, yet they do NOTHING for us with North Korea, just talk."
Image: picture-alliance/AP Photo/Korean Central News Agency
August 8, 2017: 'Fire and fury'
Trump appeared to threaten swift military action against Pyongyang when he told reporters: "North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen." North Korea responded by threatening to fire a medium-range ballistic missile into the waters around Guam, a US territory in the Pacific Ocean. It did not follow through.
Image: picture-alliance/AP Photo/B. Anderson
August 29, 2017: Japan rocket test
Pyongyang sparked international outcry when it test-launched a mid-range ballistic missile — the Hwasong-12 — over Japan. The UN Security Council unanimously condemned the test. Trump said in a White House statement: "Threatening and destabilizing actions only increase the North Korean regime’s isolation in the region and among all nations of the world. All options are on the table."
Image: picture-alliance/dpa/kyodo
September 3, 2017: Hydrogen bomb test
North Korea announced it had successfully tested its sixth nuclear weapon. Pyongyang said it was a powerful type of nuclear weapon called a hydrogen bomb and that it could be placed on top of a ballistic missile. Trump wrote on Twitter: "The United States is considering, in addition to other options, stopping all trade with any country doing business with North Korea."
Image: Reuters/KCNA
September 19, 2017: Threat to 'Rocket Man'
In his first speech at the United Nations, Trump called North Korea a "rogue state" and said Washington "will have no choice than to totally destroy North Korea" if Pyongyang failed to stop its nuclear weapons program. Referring to Kim, he added: "Rocket man is on a suicide mission for himself and his regime." Kim called Trump a "mentally-deranged US dotard" two days later.
Image: Getty Images/S. Platt
November 29, 2017: Third ICBM test
North Korea test-fired its third ICBM of 2017. Pyongyang claimed it was a new missile, the Hwasong-15, which was superior to the Hwasong-14 and could hit any target on the US mainland. The US urged allies, including Germany, to break diplomatic ties with North Korea. Berlin ignored the call. Trump also called Kim a "sick puppy."
Image: Reuters/KCNA
January 3, 2018: Who's got the bigger button?
Kim said in his 2018 New Year's address that the North had completed its nuclear weapons program and that a "nuclear button" was on his desk at all times. Trump wrote two days later on Twitter: "Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!"
Image: Reuters/KCNA
February 10, 2018: Tensions thawing?
South Korean President Moon Jae-in welcomed Kim's sister, Kim Yo Jong, at the presidential house in the South Korean capital. She handed a letter to Moon inviting him to meet the North Korean leader in Pyongyang. Tensions appeared to be thawing. Seoul and Pyongyang had already agreed to send a unified hockey team to compete at the Winter Olympics in Pyeongchang, South Korea.
Image: picture-alliance/AP Photo/K. Ju-sung
March 6, 2018: Momentum builds
South Korean National Security Adviser Chung Eui-yong led a delegation on March 5 to Pyongyang to discuss the potential for peace talks. The next day, Chung said both sides had agreed to hold a joint summit in April and set up a telephone hotline between the two capitals. He also said Pyongyang would agree to stop its nuclear weapons and missile tests if the US agreed to hold talks with the North.
Image: Reuters/Yonhap/Reuters/Yonhap/South Korean Presidential Blue House
March 9, 2018: Trump agrees
Chung flew on to Washington, D.C. to speak with Trump. After the meeting, Chung told reporters the US president had agreed to meet Kim by May. Trump later wrote on Twitter: "no missile testing by North Korea during this period of time. Great progress being made but sanctions will remain until an agreement is reached. Meeting being planned!" Foreign leaders welcomed the historic breakthrough.
Image: picture-alliance/AP/dpa/Wong Maye-E
April 19, 2018: 'Denuclearization'
A week before the scheduled meeting at the border between South Korean President Moon Jae-in and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, Moon said North Korea wanted "an end to the hostile relations" and had expressed a commitment to "complete denuclearization" of the peninsula. The next day, the telephone hotline was connected for the first time since February 2016, so Moon and Kim could talk directly.
Image: picture-alliance/AP Photo/A. Young-Joon
April 21, 2018: Kim ends missile tests
Kim announced North Korea would stop nuclear and missile tests. Kim said: "We no longer need any nuclear test or test launches of intermediate and intercontinental range ballistic missiles, and because of this the northern nuclear test site has finished its mission." However, no mention was made of its stored nuclear materials and equipment.
Image: picture-alliance/AP/A. Young-joon
April 27, 2018: Historic summit
Kim and Moon Jae-in meet in the border town of Panmunjom in the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) that has divided the two Koreas since the Korean War in 1953. The two leaders vowed to work towards a nuclear-free Korea and pledged an end to war. It was the first time a North Korean leader had set foot across the border since the 1950s and paves the diplomatic way for a Trump-Kim meeting in May or June.
Image: DW/Alexander Freund
April 30, 2018: Seoul turns off broadcasts
South Korea announces its propaganda loudspeakers are to be switched off for good. They had been silenced temporarily ahead of the inter-Korean summit, which prompted the North to halt its broadcasts, too. Pyongyang also said it would adjust its time zone to that of the South as a symbolic gesture. North Korea has been half an hour behind the South since 2015.
Image: Getty Images/AFP/E. Jones
May 24, 2018: Trump calls off Kim summit
After North Korea slammed US Vice President Mike Pence for comparing North Korea and Libya, Donald Trump abruptly canceled the summit. Trump said the move was due to "tremendous anger and open hostility" displayed by Pyongyang.
Image: picture-alliance/AP Photo/E. Vucci
June 1, 2018: Trump backtracks
A day after scrapping the summit, Trump suggested he was still open to meeting Kim. US and North Korean officials met during the following week and on June 1, Trump met one of Kim's closest aides, Kim Yong Chol, in the White House. Shortly thereafter, Trump said the summit would indeed take place on June 12 in Singapore. "I think you're going to have a very positive result in the end," he said.
Image: picture-alliance/A. Harnik
June 12, 2018: Smiles in Singapore
Trump and Kim met in Singapore as planned. They smiled, shook hands and praised how far they had come in overcoming their previous animosity. The summit ended with both leaders signing a short joint declaration that committed Pyongyang to denuclearize and the US to providing unspecified "security guarantees" to the North. Trump also said he would invite Kim to the White House.
Image: Reuters/A. Wallace
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Did the US know the EU was conducting talks with senior North Korean officials?
Yes. I visited Washington and had meetings with State Department officials. I also went to the White House and met senior advisors to President Trump. I spent hours with the senior strategic adviser to the president and told them about the talks.
South Korea's national security adviser Chung Eui Yong and I had a meeting in the Blue House in Seoul a couple of months ago. He knew exactly what I was doing. So all the main interlocutors — including the Chinese, the Americans, the South Koreans and the Japanese — knew about our engagements. But we didn't go public.
Did the announcement that Kim had agreed to meet Trump in person came as a surprise to you?
I knew it would eventually happen because the other option would be war. There is a school of thought that says the sanctions [on North Korea] are beginning to bite, and that they are the reason behind Kim's willingness to talk. President Trump would want to claim that it was his determination that has made it happen.
Should the Trump-Kim meeting take place, what do you expect from the talks?
Before we talk about results we need to talk about the preparations. And that is what worries me. I spent three years preparing for talks [with North Korean officials]. I do not know which of the American teams I have met are knowledgeable enough to negotiate without crossing a red line. It is a very sensitive issue, and the preparation for the talks is far more important than the talks themselves.
Nirj Deva is a Conservative MEP for the South East of England and Chairman of the Delegation to the Korean Peninsula.
